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Dunce cap for school drug tests

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Guest daddyG
He hasn't had to piss in a bottle.

I've got 4 kids in school and all together about 15 extracurricular activities. Encouraged them all to sign up for our voluntary drug testing program. None of them have had to piss in a bottle. It's been 4 years at least with many more years to go.

Edited by daddyG

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FDR

How much damage was done to YOUR academic career by the athletes who got high when you were in school?

 

Yes, the kids and parents signed off, because they HAD NO CHOICE if they wanted to participate in an EC activity that WILL have a bearing on the future academic advancement of that student. Would it be violating your constitutional rights if you had to sign off on random, suspicionless cavity searches in order to use a car? Random suspicionless searches of your home to live in a certain neighborhood? Seems that all should be good if you signed off on it, eh.

 

I've got a boy in college. He is in the Outdoor Club, and the local chapter of Engineers without Borders. He hasn't had to piss in a bottle. Where did you get this idea about college students?

 

Never heard of the NCAA huh? In order to participate you sign off that you will be subjected to random testing. Unconstitutional or not?

 

What the hell do you mean they "had no choice"? They absolutely did! Playing football or soccer isn't a right. It's a privilege and a privilege that comes with terms attached to it. Not doing drugs or drinking or breaking the law are some of those terms along with keeping up with a certain level of academic achievement. You really are clueless aren't you?

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nvh

Never heard of the NCAA huh? In order to participate you sign off that you will be subjected to random testing. Unconstitutional or not?

 

What the hell do you mean they "had no choice"? They absolutely did! Playing football or soccer isn't a right. It's a privilege and a privilege that comes with terms attached to it. Not doing drugs or drinking or breaking the law are some of those terms along with keeping up with a certain level of academic achievement. You really are clueless aren't you?

 

Why are you stuck on sports? Or do you think that is the only Extracurricular activity that schools offer? That wouldn't surprise me.

 

There are very good reasons, apart from protecting the flower of our youth, to demand drug testing for soccer and football. But that need certainly doesn't apply to orchestra, jazz band, the bio club, drama, TSA, chess club, math bowl, rocket club, debate or the science fair.

 

If you signed on the line to get a drivers license, and by doing so agreed to warrantless, suspicionless searches, up to and including urine tests of you and your vehicle at any time, would that fit within your understanding of the constitution?

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nvh

I've got 4 kids in school and all together about 15 extracurricular activities. Encouraged them all to sign up for our voluntary drug testing program. None of them have had to piss in a bottle. It's been 4 years at least with many more years to go.

 

Are we talking about the same thing? The rule at Solanco is that you must agree to pissing in a bottle in order to participate. That is hardly voluntary.

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gp80mac

Are we talking about the same thing? The rule at Solanco is that you must agree to pissing in a bottle in order to participate. That is hardly voluntary.

 

But they don't have to participate in those activities, so yes, it is voluntary. Now to require drug tests just to go to school - then I think there is a constitutional matter that needs to be worked out. Just like a person does not have to take a job that requires drug testing.

 

We seem to be all over the map in this thread. Are we talking about dug tests to go to class, or to participate in extracurricular activities (which also have GPA, disciplinary, and maybe even attendance requirements)?

Edited by gp80mac

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FDR

Why are you stuck on sports? Or do you think that is the only Extracurricular activity that schools offer? That wouldn't surprise me.

 

There are very good reasons, apart from protecting the flower of our youth, to demand drug testing for soccer and football. But that need certainly doesn't apply to orchestra, jazz band, the bio club, drama, TSA, chess club, math bowl, rocket club, debate or the science fair.

 

If you signed on the line to get a drivers license, and by doing so agreed to warrantless, suspicionless searches, up to and including urine tests of you and your vehicle at any time, would that fit within your understanding of the constitution?

 

If I signed of on it fine. I didn't sign off on that though. You bought another box of straws at the store today? Your cupboards must be getting full.

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FDR

Are we talking about the same thing? The rule at Solanco is that you must agree to pissing in a bottle in order to participate. That is hardly voluntary.

 

Absolutely it is. Don't participate and you don't have to piss in a bottle. Your choice and a very simple one at that.

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FDR

But they don't have to participate in those activities, so yes, it is voluntary. Now to require drug tests just to go to school - then I think there is a constitutional matter that needs to be worked out. Just like a person does not have to take a job that requires drug testing.

 

We seem to be all over the map in this thread. Are we talking about dug tests to go to class, or to participate in extracurricular activities (which also have GPA, disciplinary, and maybe even attendance requirements)?

 

I think you're finally getting to understand what he wants and that is no requirements what so ever in order to participate.

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Citydweller

We seem to be all over the map in this thread. Are we talking about dug tests to go to class, or to participate in extracurricular activities (which also have GPA, disciplinary, and maybe even attendance requirements)?

 

The issue with the lawsuit is over mainly extracurricular activities. In the plaintiff's case it is orchestra and some kind of advanced math competition that she's barred from by refusing the random suspicionless drug tests.

 

The other requirements - minimum GPA, disciplinary rules, attendance, conduct, dress....hell, add haircut and pile on all the more that you like. They are all fine as long as they don't involve a suspicionless, warrantless search and seizure upon a person or their bodily fluids that has been ruled unconstitutional by the courts.

 

The schools can easily keep drug users and boozers out of almost any program by simply piling on requirements that are constitutional, that are also near-impossible to meet if you're a regular drug user or boozer. And the kids who meet the requirements but still take a toke or down a few beers on the weekend? That's their business, and should be their parents' business, but the law says it's none of your business, or the public schools' business.

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Guest daddyG
There are very good reasons, apart from protecting the flower of our youth, to demand drug testing for soccer and football. But that need certainly doesn't apply to orchestra, jazz band, the bio club, drama, TSA, chess club, math bowl, rocket club, debate or the science fair.

Ahhh.... welcome to lawyer land. Someone along the way cried if they have to do it then everyone should do it. So, it was for all extracurricular activities. See supreme court decision mac posted.

 

Are we talking about the same thing? The rule at Solanco is that you must agree to pissing in a bottle in order to participate. That is hardly voluntary.

I don't live in Solanco. Our school district has a voluntary program, but you are 'highly encouraged' to participate, if you get my drift.

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HarlDelos

Ahhh.... welcome to lawyer land. Someone along the way cried if they have to do it then everyone should do it. So, it was for all extracurricular activities. See supreme court decision mac posted.

 

SCOTUS said students covered by the Pottawatomie policy had a limited expectation of privacy because they engaged in communal undress. I can understand why the entire basketball team showers together, but when I was in high school, the entire yearbook staff didn't get naked together. Do they do that at Solanco?

 

"Teachers testified that they saw students who appeared to be under the influence of drugs and heard students speaking openly about using drugs. A drug dog found marijuana near the school parking lot. Police found drugs or drug paraphernalia in a car driven by an extracurricular club member." - part of the Earls decision. Have teachers heard members of the yearbook staff talking openly about taking illegal drugs? Has a drug dog found a marijuana baggie in the yearbook office? Have the police found drugs or drug paraphernalia in the cars of yearbook staff members?

 

If an extracurricular event leads to drug use, it doesn't make sense to use drug testing; that's sorta like the kid who is told that masturbation leads to blindness, and wants to continue masturbating until he needs glasses. We ought to shut down extracurricular activities entirely, not allow them to turn kids into drug users at which point they are kicked out of the activity to make room for more victims.

 

And if a parent wants to have his kid tested for drugs, let it be at his expense, not mine.

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FDR

Anyone else notice a pattern with Harl's thinking. He doesn't ever want to spend a dime on anything having to do with illegal activity, preventing or curbing it, or punishing those that participate in it but seems to want to spend billions preventing people from doing perfectly legal things in their everyday life. All this while citing the Constitution in many if not most cases.

 

Odd to say the least.

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HarlDelos

Anyone else notice a pattern with Harl's thinking. He doesn't ever want to spend a dime on anything having to do with illegal activity, preventing or curbing it, or punishing those that participate in it but seems to want to spend billions preventing people from doing perfectly legal things in their everyday life. All this while citing the Constitution in many if not most cases.

 

You have an example of spending billions to prevent people from doing legal things?

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FDR

You have an example of spending billions to prevent people from doing legal things?

 

I could go pull up hundreds of posts but I don't think I need to bother. You think all your regulations and ideas come for free I guess?

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HarlDelos

I could go pull up hundreds of posts but I don't think I need to bother. You think all your regulations and ideas come for free I guess?

 

Can't name even one, huh?

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gp80mac

I can understand why the entire basketball team showers together, but when I was in high school, the entire yearbook staff didn't get naked together. Do they do that at Solanco?

 

What happens at the Southern End...

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FDR

Can't name even one, huh?

 

Well................we could mention you think drugs should be legal. You've said it many times IIRC. You make wild claims about how we waste money fighting it. You never for a second consider the enormous amount it will cost families, property owners, liability insurance, the list goes on forever due to those that will kill people, crash into others, and flat out waste their lives away on drugs eventually flooding the unemployment lines. Yes............it will cost us billions.

 

Would you like to mention some of your other hair brained ideas?

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HarlDelos

Well................we could mention you think drugs should be legal. You've said it many times IIRC. You make wild claims about how we waste money fighting it. You never for a second consider the enormous amount it will cost families, property owners, liability insurance, the list goes on forever due to those that will kill people, crash into others, and flat out waste their lives away on drugs eventually flooding the unemployment lines. Yes............it will cost us billions.

 

Would you like to mention some of your other hair brained ideas?

 

I'm still waiting for you to come up with the first example in which I want to "spend billions preventing people from doing perfectly legal things in their everyday life". In case you haven't noticed, this ain't one of them.

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Guest daddyG
And if a parent wants to have his kid tested for drugs, let it be at his expense, not mine.

It is at my expense. I paid over $500 this year for kids to play sports. That is just in fees. Does not include my hundreds of hours of volunteer time and fundraising.

 

You should be very happy harl that the extracurricular budgets have been slashed by a higher percentage then any other budget over the past 10 years. Your hard earned social security dollars are mostly going into the pockets of teachers and administrators.

Edited by daddyG

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HarlDelos

It is at my expense. I paid over $500 this year for kids to play sports. That is just in fees. Does not include my hundreds of hours of volunteer time and fundraising.

 

Oh, wow. That's for kids, not kid? That's to play sports, not a sport?

 

It costs $35,000 annually to maintain a football field. It takes 300 galloms of gas just to mow the grass.

There's another $40,000 per season for the coaches and trainers.

How much do you think it costs to haul thr team to away games?

And you have some pretty valuable real estate that real estate taxes aren't being paid on.

 

USA Today ran a story 3 years ago talking about two schools eliminating athletics completely because of a budget shortfall. They were saving $1.5 to $2.5 million by doing that - and the athletic fields were still off the tax rolls, so that isn't all the costs.

 

How many kids do you need to have on the basketball team to cover those costs? Hell, your $500 probably isn't even paying for the uniforms your kid is wearing out.

 

How many drug tests do you want to pay for, at $42 per test? Given the bad behavior that athletes are associated with, I don't think that schools should athletic teams at all.

Edited by Dr. Harl Delos

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nvh

If I signed of on it fine. I didn't sign off on that though. You bought another box of straws at the store today? Your cupboards must be getting full.

 

No doubt you were fortunate that they didn't pull urine screens when you were in Kindergarten. Where would you be today if you got bumped out of finger painting?

 

So, would you sign off on random searches, up to and including suspicionless urine tests, at the whim of the police, in return for the privilege of driving a car.

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nvh

But they don't have to participate in those activities, so yes, it is voluntary. Now to require drug tests just to go to school - then I think there is a constitutional matter that needs to be worked out. Just like a person does not have to take a job that requires drug testing.

 

We seem to be all over the map in this thread. Are we talking about dug tests to go to class, or to participate in extracurricular activities (which also have GPA, disciplinary, and maybe even attendance requirements)?

 

Yes, this thread is all over the map. I made the point earlier , that I don't think random urines as a requirement for extracurricular activities is particularly effective, and in some cases is counter-productive, achieving the opposite result. And, of course, there is the constitutional argument.

 

Do you have to drive? If it was required, would signing away your 4th Amendment rights against search and seizure for the privilege of driving be voluntary?

 

I think we all agree that participating in extracurricular activities is an important educational opportunity, as well as an advantage when filling out college applications. And to not be in extracurricular activities would be a distinct disadvantage that could effect the rest of a kids life. So voluntary is not a good description. I mean, AP classes are voluntary, but not taking them puts a student at a distinct disadvantage.

 

My son was in Rocket Club at Penn Manor, and qualified for the national competition. While there he got to meet p and impress people from NASA and Lockheed Martin. Then his team won the national competition, and the International, and he got to hobnob with generals, politicians, scientists and engineers from around the world at an air show in London.

 

He was in TSA, and participated in local and state competitions. His team built a still to convert used cooking oil into bio-diesel out of pickle barrels and hardware from Lowes, and modified a car to run on it. They designed a submarine, though they didn't get the chance to build it.

 

He entered the science fair a number of times, and got an award from the Army for his on experiment on combustion temperatures of vegetation. (The Army seems to like things that burst into flames).

 

He learned teamwork, design and mathematics on a very practical level. And when he was writing college applications, and when the schools examined his transcripts, there is no doubt that all that practical application of technology was a factor in his acceptance, and today he's studying bio-medical engineering at an Ivy League school. So. with all the potential advantages from participation, both academically and for future career, participation in extracurriculars hardly qualifies as simply voluntary, since a considerable price is paid for not participating.

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FDR

I'm still waiting for you to come up with the first example in which I want to "spend billions preventing people from doing perfectly legal things in their everyday life". In case you haven't noticed, this ain't one of them.

 

As I said before. You think all of your ideas come for free. Crawl out of your hole once Harl...........................you're not in middle of nowhere Indiana anymore.

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FDR

No doubt you were fortunate that they didn't pull urine screens when you were in Kindergarten. Where would you be today if you got bumped out of finger painting?

 

So, would you sign off on random searches, up to and including suspicionless urine tests, at the whim of the police, in return for the privilege of driving a car.

 

If it were a requirement to drive a car I would have no choice. Well.....I'd choose to continue driving.

 

How is it that you don't feel taxes are unconstitutional?

Edited by FDR

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Guest daddyG
It costs $35,000 annually to maintain a football field. It takes 300 galloms of gas just to mow the grass.

There's another $40,000 per season for the coaches and trainers.

How much do you think it costs to haul thr team to away games?

 

We also get 1,000 fans on a Friday night at $5 per person, that is $5,000 for one home game. Not to mention naming rights to the stadiums and sponsors. Equipment costs, don't even go there, the school is paying for less and less and less. That is why we have concession stands, chicken BBQs and tons of other fundraisers. We are helping to pay for uniforms, field maintenance and coach's salaries.

 

I will gladly support the school to drop sports as our organization is ready and willing to pickup the slack and keep fielding sports team and all the expenses to go along with it. We will still require drug testing and good grades and make it a prime goal to train scholar athletes both on and off the field.

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nvh

If it were a requirement to drive a car I would have no choice. Well.....I'd choose to continue driving.

 

How is it that you don't feel taxes are unconstitutional?

 

You'd have no choice, so you'd roll over? You wouldn't claim constitutional protection? You aughta read the thing. There is more than just the 2nd Amendment. Here's the 4th.

The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.

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HarlDelos

We also get 1,000 fans on a Friday night at $5 per person, that is $5,000 for one home game.

 

Priced a stadium lately? Clipper Stadium cost more than $4000 per seat to build. And it would cost another $3 million for parking lots. If your football season is 14 games long, you have 7 away games, and that leaves only $35,000 - and you also need liability insurance (you heard about Sugarland, right?) plus people to direct traffic, ushers, ticket-sellers, plus you need water fountains and toiliet paper. Naming rights at Clipper Stadium ran $250,000 annually, but they have 10 times as many games per year and six times the stadium capacity as well as a lot of special events like concerts and ice skating, so a fair price for a 1000-capacity high school football stadium would maybe $4,000 per year.

 

So you have $40,000 annual gross income from admissions and naming rights, and that $7 million mortgage would take $41970 per month to pay off. Have you ever noticed that all the pro sporting teams want to use municipal stadiums instead of owning their own venue? It's because stadiums are a big money pit. But I was looking only at playing the game, not accomodating fans.

 

Oh, and by the way, how many paying fans do you get at a baseball game, a lacrosse game, a soccer game, a track meet? Not so many, huh?

 

I will gladly support the school to drop sports as our organization is ready and willing to pickup the slack and keep fielding sports team and all the expenses to go along with it. We will still require drug testing and good grades and make it a prime goal to train scholar athletes both on and off the field.

 

Sounds good to me. Pop Warner does something like this. And that would let the schools focus on education.

Edited by Dr. Harl Delos

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Guest daddyG
Priced a stadium lately?

Apples and oranges. I don't know of any local school who has a 'Clipper' like stadium for football games. A field and some bleachers is all that is necessary.

 

Point was you are looking only at expenses without subtracting any income. Sports budgets have been cut for years and will continue to be cut with the pension crisis. Just looked at the proposed budget for next year. $55 million in expenses and all extracurricular activities has a budget of $1 million of which $800,000 is salary and benefits. So .4% of the budget is going to expenses for student activities. :pktlihnq:

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HarlDelos

Apples and oranges. I don't know of any local school who has a 'Clipper' like stadium for football games. A field and some bleachers is all that is necessary.

 

Those are quite some bleachers, if you're expecting them to hold 200,000 pounds of fans jumping up and down excitedly. It's quite strange fans if you expect them to wrinkle their noses to teleport to the football game - and they have quite unusual bladders if they don't need plumbing facilities. And the school needs quite a bit of luck if they don't need insurance. Seven people died in the bleachers at the Indiana State Fair, and 43 were injured. How much do you think their lawsuits will run?

 

Point was you are looking only at expenses without subtracting any income. Sports budgets have been cut for years and will continue to be cut with the pension crisis. Just looked at the proposed budget for next year. $55 million in expenses and all extracurricular activities has a budget of $1 million of which $800,000 is salary and benefits. So .4% of the budget is going to expenses for student activities.

 

Which is my point. Your $500 isn't covering the expenses of the program. The school ought to stop wasting money to entertain the community and do the jpb of law enforcement agencies and concentrate on educating students, which they've been doing a piss-poor job of.

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